BOYLE: Thank you very much for having me on Alex. My best to your listening audience.
JONES: So much is happening in the world sir. With your expertise in international law, in torture and in tyranny, in studying that and in fighting it your whole life, can you give us the big view of where the world stands right now and then where the U.S. stands in that world and then your response on this amazing revelation in the New York Times last week that what we already knew from the White House memos, but here it is confirmed, that Bush ordered all this?
BOYLE: Well, in answer to your first question, I think the major problem now is what seems to be some type of military attack on
One, it could get completely out of control and that whole area over there in the Persian Gulf could simply blow up and, two, undoubtedly Bush will then use that as an excuse to further his police state tactics here in the United States, if not at some point culminating in martial law. For example, if there (are) hostilities between the
JONES: That he has methodically been exercising and preparing and funding the implementation of that, has he not doctor?
BOYLE: That’s correct. As a matter of a fact it’s already been reported after September 11, 2001 he tried to get a formal declaration of war and Congress refused to give it to him and so they gave him a limited authorization to use military force under the War Powers Resolution. It’s also clear that the first draft of the USA Patriot Act was sitting on Ashcroft’s desk before September 11th. They had already had a provision in there to suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus, which is all that separates us from a police state: namely if you’re detained, your lawyer can appear in court and demand that you be produced live in court to justify the detention and the conditions of detention. For example, such that you’re being tortured or something like that. So it’s very clear that even before September 11th, with that draft of the Patriot Act ready to go, they were contemplating setting up a police state. And if there is a formal declaration of war against
JONES: After the next attack we’re going to set aside the constitution for a military form of government. Did you see that letter a week and a half ago by former Senator Gary Hart, the big C.F.R. muckedy muck, where he told
BOYLE: I’m sorry I didn’t, but it’s true they have all along of course staged the
So all these Neo-Cons have been schooled there at the
That’s what we’re dealing with.
JONES: Well that Nazi theme keeps coming up. The main bagman for the person that bankrolled Hitler, Fritz Thyssen, was Prescott Bush and then he got left as the executor of those banks and monies after World War II, so this Nazi theme keeps popping up.
BOYLE: Well of course that’s a historical matter and I have that cited in one of my books, but I’m just telling you, being a product of the Neo-Con system that they are Neo-Nazis, they’ve been trained to think like Neo-Nazis, and you don’t have to take my word for it.
There is a Canadian Professor of Political Philosophy Shadia Drury, and she’s written two books on these people – The Political Ideas of Leo Strauss and Leo Strauss and the American Right. And to the best of my knowledge, Professor Drury had no contact with the
JONES: Now let me stop you there. What does it mean to you doctor, working with these people at the highest levels, what does it mean studying this, to have Zbignew Brzezinski telling the senate committee, "the government may stage a provocation, a terror attack, to blame it on Iran?" What does it mean when Gary Hart writes a letter saying, "we stage events. Don’t think they won’t stage one to attack you?" He just said it!
BOYLE: Well, I went through the same Ph.D. program at Harvard that produced both Brzezinski and Kissinger. They gave me Kissinger’s old office there at the Center for International Affairs. I do not believe that Brzezinski would qualify as a Neo-Con. He is a traditional Real Politicker, but I think Brzezinski is certainly sending a warning to anyone who will listen to him that, based upon his knowledge of these people and the way they operate, that some type of provocation is on the pike – it’ s coming. So I interpreted the statement he made as a warning by an insider that this is coming. I don’t know Hart personally, but again, as you know he ran for the president, he was a senator tied into the C.F.R. and that’s the way he sees it too. So I think we have to pay attention and as you point out, Tommy Frank said, "one more terrorist attack and we’re going to shut the Constitution down." It’s already been reported that if there is another terrorist attack Cheney’s going to blame it on
I’m sure that they will institute martial law, if not the whole country, certainly selectively. As you again have correctly pointed out, they have amended the Posse Comitatus Act out of existence; they have amended the Insurrection Act, permitting the president to call out the National Guard for any reason at all; the Protect America Act in August, which basically amended the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act out of existence; the Levi guidelines in the Department of Justice to prevent the Watergate abuses – those were all ended by Ashcroft, so even in the Department of Justice we’re back in the days of Cointelpro and this new Attorney General nominee, Michael Mukasey, he’s a Neo-Con and…
JONES: He also covered up government involvement in the first
BOYLE: I’m not familiar with that role, but I do know he was the judge who accepted President Bush’s unilateral and unconstitutional determination that a
JONES: Now Doctor, that brings me up to my next point. Obviously you know
about the secret order for the torture by Bush. That completes the circuit. And they’re putting people in prison for following the orders, but then Bush claimed he wasn’t involved in torture after they had first advertised it and said it was good, so what does that mean in this and then is there any way to stop them from starting World War III and going around and arresting everybody and setting up the Fourth Reich?
BOYLE: Well clearly President Bush is at the top of the chain of command. He gave the orders and he’s fully accountable for all these criminal practices including torture, which violates the Convention Against Torture and a federal statute making torture a crime.
JONES: But now he can’t say that he didn’t know.
BOYLE: Well of course he knew all along. He gave the orders. (laughs).
JONES: We knew that from the memos, obviously, but now we have him.
BOYLE: Right. But the point is, what can we do now? Well, we still have our First Amendment rights. These Neo-Cons have basically shredded the rest of the Bill of Rights.
We can protest, demonstrate, sit in, peaceful, non-violent sit-ins. Cindy Sheehan and others sat in there with Congressman Conyers demanding impeachment – we have to do that.
Also we have to run candidates against incumbents that will not support impeachment of Bush and Cheney immediately, to stop this…
JONES: Well that was my next point that the Democrats are more Neo-Conish, in many cases, than the Republicans, so how do we deal with that in your opinion and what do we do if they go ahead and stage a new attack or launch a new war and try to have martial law?
BOYLE: Well, I’m thinking of that myself. As I think I told you, I’m on the
JONES: Have you heard about the ambassador who went to an anti-war (event), so now she can’t fly into
BOYLE: Right. Now I’m on those lists.
JONES: I mean, this is Nazi Germany. That’s what they do now.
BOYLE: Well I’m just telling your listening audience, look, whether you like us lawyers or not, but the bottom line is there are a lot of lawyers trying to fight to stop this and we lawyers are sort of the canary birds in the mineshafts of democracy. When the air goes foul, the canary birds die, warning the miners that it’s time to get out of the mine. Well, they’re going after lawyers. They went after Mr. Mayfield in
JONES: But even with Hitler his own people started fighting him. It’s got to stall. 80% of people disagree with (Bush) now. Do you think they’re going too far? I mean, do you think they’re going to fail?
BOYLE: I don’t know. Isn’t that really up to you and me and your listening audience Alex?
JONES: Yeah. I’m trying as hard as I can doctor Boyle. Stay there. Final segment with you on the other side….
JONES: You were telling me during the break that you flew back into the country, to Chicago, and there were armed guys waiting for you and they took you into custody and you were interrogated and I said "did you speak up and tell them this is America" and you just said "No, I’ve been all over the world and this is just like a communist or fascist country. You just keep your mouth shut." I mean, to see us turn into this – these people are bullies and if we don’t speak up they’re going to win. There’s no doubt things are going to be worst in the final equation if we don’t speak up. And I hope everybody out there isn’t intimidated by this. I hope you get outraged by it.
Doctor Boyle, you’ve had to deal with this with courage, speaking out against them and having this happen. What do you say to folks about fighting tyranny?
BOYLE: Well we’re Americans aren’t we? We came from a background of launching a revolution against tyrants. I mean it’s in our blood. It’s in our history. I don’t think I have to give people a lecture here about what they have to do. I think the purpose of my appearing on the program today is agreeing with you in saying "the hour is close at hand." If they attack
JONES: And they want to set up a loyal commissariat secret police state here in the
BOYLE: That’s correct. From the Neo-Con perspective,
JONES: Sir, we’re out of time. I want to get you up in the next few weeks for a full hour. Thank you for spending time with us. You’re the author of several books – one of them Destroying World Order. Thank you for coming on.