Thanks Michael, that’s useful. From what I’ve read (e.g. Brinton and later discussions) it does seem wrong to say that deliberately squashing worker’s control either didn’t happen, or was necessary, or had no avoidable bad effects on the outcome, or whatever people think, so the libertarian view makes sense to me. I’ve seen a Lenninist refer to Morris Brinton as unreliable (I think Richard Seymour somewhere in the comments here) but he never replied to my query on why he criticizes Brinton. Maybe it’s to do with this debate with Chris Goodey but even assuming the worst on this evidence I can’t see how the debate here undermine’s Brinton’s main points. Anyway I will let you get on with saving Z now!