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February 7, 2015 at 1:31 am #969477SamuelNug SamuelNugParticipant
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i want your opinion about this; (not urgent)
assume there is participatory community and there are some members who respect the idea and the principles of the participatory economics, nevertheless they do not want to participate and just say “do what you do, i will agree with your decisions and i will do what is said me to do”.
In that case a robust parecon could encompass those kind of members to some extend, but i think this is a pressure for coodinatorism (from bottom). The problem is that if the number of these members tend to increase then parecon could not be sustainable. I think that one of the reason why your book on parecon is strongly emphasizing the values.
Gökhan, IstanbulFebruary 18, 2015 at 1:31 pm #969964
I am unclear what you mean by they would not participate. Would they not work…well, then what would they get for income? If they do work, then they have a balanced job complex.March 10, 2015 at 11:22 am #970800Seán PriorParticipant
Not so much a technical question about parecon/parsoc theory, as much as a practical question…
I’ve just finished a masters in general economics, and hope to continue with a PhD. I’ve gone through your and Robin’s theoretical book “the political economy of participatory” economics and loved it, and I’ve also enjoyed looking through some of the not-so-technical accompanying books.
My hope is to continue in economics, but now in the domain of parecon. Basically I’m looking for time-saving advice on what avenues/ideas you feel are still to be fully explored within the parecon framework, or if there are other economists besides yourself and Robin researching and developing related ideas in the academic arena.
Thanks a million,
Ireland.March 10, 2015 at 1:05 pm #970803
My apologies, just saw this.
I think Robin is much closer to such matters, so I would suggest writing him. If you email me, I will put you in touch.
for myself, if I were in your position I think I would focus on transition program – in general, but also in light of possibilities in Greece, Spain, and indeed, Ireland, with attention to experiences in Latin America. That focus would not only be interesting and challenging, but, in my view far more important, it would be highly relevant with potential for actually affecting choices.March 12, 2015 at 9:37 am #970881Seán PriorParticipant
Apologies, I tried emailing your address- firstname.lastname@example.org, and the general zmag address, but received failure status notifications.
I think research into a transition program would be as you said- very important and relevant – and certainly something I would be interested in.
I’m still reading and puzzling out the full breadth of ideas in Parecon, but the proposals, and the potential for good really excites me. I’m basically looking to find out what others are doing at the moment, and from there try figure out what I can do. As you said Robin is working more closely to these things, so perhaps he may be in a better position to offer some guidance- if that’s the case I’d really appreciate it if you could put me in touch.
My email is:
email@example.comApril 12, 2015 at 3:42 pm #972180
Hi Michael- Thanks for making the space to communicate with you. that tends to say a lot. I am not sure if you saw my recently post in the introduction thread, but much of that post will better explain some aspects of my question here. My question in the roughest terms is about “local” or community based food and health The background to the question addresses three tipping points, or even contradictions, if you will.
The first is the what one might call the question of scale, or perhaps how one contextualizes from the specific case to the more general one. For instance when we begin a discussion of localism there is a tendency to define at as specific economic and social unit to some degree. Much of the discussion localism attempts to talk of self sufficiency in terms of a clearly defined given local unit.
The second is closely related to the first in that it is again is a blending of the finite and the infinite. The example I am going to try here is the fairly famous riddle of the non zero sum gain theory in economics. This theory of course ends up in a summation of something like a rising tide lifts all boats. Perhaps it is a poor example since it tends to arouse rather strong ideological bickering quite quickly, but i am using it simply trying to use it as an example of the struggle between the seemingly finite reality around us as compared to this suggested limitlessness of human imagination or perhaps simply the idea of the infinite itself
The final idea is again a tension of sorts of how any given population may make a plan or a goal, and how they then attenuate or adapt the evolution of that plan through hopefully democratic and rational processes. As I mention in my introductory post, a vision or achievable goal seems an essential part in coordinating any community action, but then, rather obviously, such a plan will be subjected to any ongoing process that cannot be simply foreseen by the planners
In general I am just asking you to roughly comment on my ideas of local food and health movements, but would certainly understand if you feel I need to further clarify. I really appreciate your openness to interact, but am of course somewhat discouraged by the lack of response.
All the best
NapaApril 12, 2015 at 5:15 pm #972181MichaelKeymaster
I am first seeing this – and haven’t seen some other post, at least yet.
I honestly don’t know what you are asking. Self sufficiency makes sense to me if you are going on a journey in a sailboat and have no access beyond it – say. You get my meaning. The idea that an area or region should operate such as to take nothing from outside, nor give anything to outside, to me makes no economic, social, or ecological sense. I just can’t any virtue to arguing for this in the abstract and universally. Of course there are cases where a place should get from locally, not distance, for good reasons, but it is case by case.
The idea that the implementiation of any plan will typically involve refinements in light of new things learned along the way seems to me obviously true – and virtually universal. It applies, typically, even to building a new home, much less a new society. On the other hand, that doesn’t negate the possibility or desirably of knowing in advance where you are trying to go particularly in its main defining features.
I am not sure either is an answer – but I just don’t get what else you might be asking.April 12, 2015 at 7:05 pm #972185Miracle MaxParticipant
I am confused regarding how balanced job complexes reconcile with remuneration for onerousness of work. It seems to me almost all onerous work is also disempowering. If I want earn more (or less) income by changing the amount of onerous work I do, won’t this upset the empowering-disempowering balance of the BJC in my workplace/industry/across all industries?April 12, 2015 at 7:18 pm #972190
Often it is as you say. And the balance is the first priority. Usually, actually, if you are trying to bring in more income, you will do it by working longer, not by doing more onerous work. The latter is possible, but only while balance is maintained.April 12, 2015 at 8:33 pm #972193
Keymaster- The other post of mine that I referred to is in the introduction thread. Perhaps the discussion is too muddled to salvage, but what I am trying to express is I do believe there is virtue in community’s as least tacitly visualizing themselves as a self sufficient unit as a starting point for a deeper analysis. What can be be produced in abundance should of course be traded with other communities or economic institutions. The work hours part of this, which is on the post in the introduction, is a key concept in my opinion . That metric, in my opinion, offers communities the possibility of a more in depth abstract analysis in terms of where they can go in economic terms. I can try to explain further, but just wondering if that helps firstApril 12, 2015 at 9:14 pm #972194MichaelKeymaster
I have never understood why there is any particular virtue at all in what is called self sufficiency. In a desirable society, or economy, why is there a virtue in going it alone, so to speak? To me the impetus to want that seems like it is anti social. I know for some folks it arises from a fear that large scale literally means oppressive. That a workplace producing for distant people literally entails oppression. And if these things were true, then there would be logic to wanting as much self sufficiency as possible, but they are not true. And what is worse, seeking self sufficiency as a virtue cases people to most often simply ignore many real issues – doing allocation well, for example.April 12, 2015 at 9:18 pm #972196
Sorry about the key master nonsense. When I am online as admin, to fix things, post tings, etc. apparently it gives me that name – and sometimes I just don’t notice as I rush around doing things…April 12, 2015 at 10:08 pm #972197
As a spoke on from the beginning, I am suggesting many of these points where rather stark dichotomies or contradictions seem to persist, such as local economic organizing is either anti social , or is super social, as I suggested, become stumbling blocks to deeper analysis IMHOApril 12, 2015 at 10:31 pm #972198
For or what its worth your questioning of the significance of the term self sufficiency does give me some pause. I can certainly see how a conservative position can be associate with it, but I generally consider myself fairly radically leftist. Tangentially perhaps I see the dynamics of local connection to provide a greater ability to break the hierarchical structures that I believe to be part of your position as well
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